Me and prominent writer and prominent social media feminist, Tami Winfrey Harris had a Twitter exchange regarding her article about Shawty Lo in “Clutch.” It’s worth the read, I think. The primary goal of “No Wedding No Womb” was to start a dialogue, and in so doing, begin to affect change. This is a good start.
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@whattamisaid @ClutchMagazine Hey Tami, I read your piece, and you have to admit, more people disagree. The BC is so broken, the OOW is cray
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@whattamisaid People are TIRED. What is happening NOW is NOT working. I wish prominent people like you would acknowledge that.
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@whattamisaid You mention Sweden in your piece but you fail to mention that these couples are LIFE partners and raise kids TOGETHER.
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@whattamisaid Swedish menn who abandon their children are NOT the norm. Why can’t we just be honest? What is there to fear?
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@whattamisaid I feel like social media feminists are deliberately ignoring the plight of kids in the OOW situations, who suffer the most.
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@whattamisaid …And all those comments from Clutchettes who AGREE with MY position can not be discounted as “Dr. Laura-esque.”
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@whattamisaid To dismiss peoples’ concerns about the OOW rate as some sort of rabid conservatism is to deliberately miss the point.
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@Christelyn it’s odd to here you say article pushes OOW agenda. The point of the article was not endorsement of Shawty Lo’s lifestyle.
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@Christelyn The point of the article is that Shawty Lo and his fam are not representative of blk American families.
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@whattamisaid I know it wasn’t. but to compare what’s going on in the US to what’s going on in Sweden is a default rubber stamp. No.
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@whattamisaid I’ve interviewed men from Sweden. It is an outright SHAME to abandon your children. The men DO NOT DO THAT. BM ARE.
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@whattamisaid he’s an extreme example, but the OOW rate is the norm. Multiple baby moms ARE the norm. It is. C’mon be honest!
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@whattamisaid You basically say that this is the “new normal” and we should just all get used to it. But it’s destructive.
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@whattamisaid Tami, take a look at the majority of the comments. They all on the side of the principles of
#NWNW. Could it be possible…
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@whattamisaid …that folks do think what’s going on is viable? Why won’t feminists consider this?
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@whattamisaid I just think that to defend behaviors that are clearly destructive is not TRULY being concerned with the plight of these peeps
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@Christelyn I agree that most commenters disagreed with my article. I’m okay with disagreement.
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@whattamisaid But then, WHY won’t your group take into account these folks opinions? Won’t you just dismiss them as conservative loons?
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@whattamisaid If feminists, don’t want to advocate marriage, fine! Be a TRUE Swedish model. THOSE men stick around!!
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@whattamisaid Here are the facts. We have had 40 years doing things as certain way with a negative result. People are sick of it.
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@Christelyn Again, I can’t speak for all feminists, just myself. Please engage me as an individual. Feminists are not a monolith.
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@whattamisaid Your side offers no reals solutions to affect change only status quo, but more government money. No talk of personal respons.
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@whattamisaid Is is safe that your position is pretty much the party line feminist position?
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@whattamisaid They are not fans of traditional marriage, IMHO. But that’s not the point. Fems will not ACKNOWLEDGE that sys isn’t working.
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@Christelyn who said feminists don’t advocate marriage? That is not any sort of feminist doctrine?
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@Christelyn I think in order for us to have a true debate, you need to understand my position. So allow me to clarify.
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@whattamisaid Even you won’t acknowledge it. You simply say “marriage isn’t the solution.” Fine. It’s not. But what is? More gov’t money?
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@christelyn I am not against traditional marriage. Most other feminists I know are not either. This is probably good news for my hubby.
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@christelyn My marriage is one of the best things that I have ever done, But I do realize that my needs are not every woman’s needs.
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@christelyn I will not demean other women for choices that aren’t mine.
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@christelyn Traditional families are awesome. I come from a long, line of them. But I know awesome nontraditional families too.
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@christelyn I won’t demean families that do not look like mine.
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I love my Daddy more than I can tell you and I grew up w him in my home. But I know a lot of great co-parenting fathers too.
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@christelyn I also know gay parents. And the idea that they cannot parent is abhorrent to me.
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@christelyn I don’t want to see young black girls have children unless and until they are ready for them.
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@christelyn I advocate for equality, education and reproductive healthcare for young women (and men) so they can make responsible choices.
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@christelyn But I do want young women to plans for their whole lives, not just their reproductive organs.
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@carolynedgar People all over the world are marrying less. That is changing the fabric of our society. We need to find a way to address it.
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@whattamisaid OK, so we are thisclose to being of like mind. Where we differ is your acknowledgement that the OOW rate has been destructive.
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@carolynedgar Simply saying “everybody get married” is not a solution.
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@whattamisaid I agree. And men need to step up and take responsibility for the kids they create. That doesn’t require marriage.
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@christelyn Whats more, by stigmatizing single, black women you make is harder for women and their children to leave unhealthy situations.
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@whattamisaid Wht I and others’ frustrations comes from a deafening silence that some will not acknowledge how what’s happning isn’t workin’
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@whattamisaid ..The argument is always, “Look at Sweden!” Without understanding that while not married, the arrangement is STILL traditional
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@christelyn By demonizing single, black women, you encourage them to make bad choices, partnering with the wrong people to escape stigma.
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@whattamisaid But, but ACCEPTING single parenthood, your side RUBBER STAMPS it! You want to coddle and just make it OK. It’s not OK.
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@christelyn And not all women want to be with men. What about them?
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@whattamisaid Well, by your side saying everything goes, you green light harmful behaviors. Has your cuddly tactic worked? NO. It hasn’t.
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@christelyn Also, one point of my article, is that we need to stop pretending that the aberrations the media shows us = average black family
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@whattamisaid You may think I’m “too hard”, but many think you are too soft. Perhaps there’s a solution somewhere in the middle.
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@christelyn That so many folks in that comment thread were arguing that blk family = Shawty Lo reveals that our biggest problem ain’t on TV
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@whattamisaid I’m not talking about women who don’t want to be with men. That’s not part of this convo. that’s not what’s happng w/ the maj.
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@christelyn I need you to engage what I am actually saying. At no point have I said “anything goes.” I suggested some areas for focus.
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@whattamisaid Well then, don’t bring up women who don’t want men. They’re not part of THIS conversation.
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@whattamisaid Tami, Shawty is the extreme, but an 80% OOW is the norm and multiple baby dads is also. You know it and so does e’body else.
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@christelyn You do understand that ppl can become single parents without having children OOW. So, why stigmatize.
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@whattamisaid Anyway, my focus isn’t to demonize single moms, but to prevent their offspring from doing the same.
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@whattamisaid You keep throwing in the kitchen sink, Tami. I’m not talking about the exceptions.
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@christelyn You were a single mom. Don’t you deserve better than derision? How does shaming help?
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@christelyn I’m curious: Do you support the efforts of Planned Parenthood to educate and provide low-cost free repro healthcare?
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@whattamisaid How does shaming help? I don’t know. But personal responsibility did. If I were to have listened to you, I might not have…
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@whattamisaid Changed my station. That’s what’s lacking from the issue. Personal responsibility.
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@whattamisaid Knowing that what I did hurt my child was shame enough to not continue the cycle.
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@christelyn You know I don’t know that blk wmn having multiple children by multiple fathers is the norm. Can you share link to statistic?
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@christelyn See, I don’t think gay women are the kitchen sink. My point is that blk wmn have a variety of needs and we need to be cognizant
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@whattamisaid Sure I can. 80% of first born children of black women are born OOW.
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@whattamisaid If they have more, the others are then multiple. I am a mother of children with multiple fathers.
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@whattamisaid I’m (trying) to focus on single, hetero women for this conversation.
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@christelyn Actually, I believe the figure is 73 percent of b.lk children born out of wedlock. Can you share a link about multiple fathers?
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@whattamisaid Overall birthrates have gone down, but the OOW rate is will over 70%. You’ll have to do better than “The Atlantic” lolz
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@christelyn I agree w personal responsiblity, which is why–again–I advocate for women to have equality, education and healthcare.
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@whattamisaid I can show you more articles about BW with multiple fathers if you like.
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@whattamisaid I agree that education improves outcomes. You’ll get no argument from me there. But that’s not what we’re talking about.
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@carolynedgar Yes, it appears married women like me who haven’t had kids are the problem. 🙂
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@whattamisaid That’s not true. The majority of BW have multiple baby dads
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@christelyn I’m sorry, I thought the link you sent said 1 in 5.
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@christelyn But I think we SHOULD be talking about education. You want to know how to have fewer OOW births to parents who aren’t ready.
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@whattamisaid 59 percent of BW. That’s a majority. That’s the latest.
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@whattamisaid So that means the bc looks more like Shawty Lo than you’d care to acknowledge, I think.
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No. Only party line is equality for women. RT
@christelyn: Is is safe that your position is pretty much the party line feminist position?
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@whattamisaid My issue is I feel like you want to make the OOW situation OK, and just a “part of life.” It shouldn’t if it’s not working.
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@whattamisaid Can’t you even ACKNOWLEDGE the the OOW model in the BC is mostly negative?
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@christelyn From what I can tell, here is where we differ. My goal is to prepare black women (and men) for responsible, fulfilling lives…
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@christelyn I think focusing on those things will get you the lower rate of OOW births you want. But my concern is healthy families…
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@christelyn …not necessarily traditional ones. I absolutely do NOT think shaming is productive.
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@whattamisaid Tami, I think we both mirror much in our advocacy. The only difference is I think the current model needs to shift.
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@whattamisaid I contend that the majority of the people disagreed with your Clutch piece because they’ve noticed this model is destructive.
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@christelyn I acknowledge that too many black men and women have children before they are ready and that leads to dysfunction.
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@christelyn I agree the current model needs to shift. We disagree on the way to shift it.
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@whattamisaid Shaming=/= public flogging. But fems employ shaming all day long to folks who don’t agree with them.
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@christelyn You have shared your experience. Let me share mine…
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@whattamisaid What I have always said with NWNW is I know I don’t have all the answers. This is a collective effort.
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@whattamisaid That’s why I rallied over 100 people to join NWNW. We all agree there’s a problem, but offer varied solutions.
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@blackgirlinmain Before I became sexually active as a young woman, I went to PP for birth control….
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@christelyn I did that not out of shame but because my parents raised me to believe I could do anything. I had grand plans!
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@christelyn I didn’t want to derail those plans by having a child before I was ready. It wasn’t shame that made me be responsible…
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@christelyn …it was education, equality, etc..I am married now and decided not to have bio kids, but I am honored to coparent with…
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@christelyn My husband and the kids’ mom. Like so many, we are a blended family and we are not deficient.
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@christelyn Okay, still, I don’t know what feminists flog ppl all day long on the internet. There are millions of feminists on earth.
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@christelyn If some feminists were unkind on this little corner of the internet, that does not = all feminists.
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@christelyn @renpassion It is never productive to paint a group w a broad brush: nontraditional families or feminists.
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@christelyn You don’t need to name names for me, but have you ever read the work of black feminists like bell hooks or audre lourde?
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@whattamisaid I’ve read Alice Walker, bell hook, no audre lourde.
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@christelyn Have you spoken with black feminists in real life? The interwebs is not a hot bed of civility…just sayin.
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@whattamisaid Admittedly, I have not spoken with the fems who openly derided my online in person, no, I haven’t.
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@christelyn I know that many feminists disagreed w NWNW. I did too. But a lot of ppl disagreed w my Clutch article. Debate is healthy.
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@christelyn I thought many of the comments on your article that mentioned me were uncharitable, and yet, here we are talking.
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@RenPassion @whattamisaid This is actually getting to be a good convo. But I’m getting sleepy. I think a Part II is in order tho, no?
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@christelyn Happy New Year. The best to you and your family.
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@whattamisaid ha ha, yes. but understand, I am legend for my snark and provocativeness. But you’re right, it wasn’t nice.
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@whattamisaid Happy New Year, Tami. Maybe we’ll meet in the middle in 2013. I have hope.
